Back in early March, I asked which episode people considered underrated. That post produced a pleasingly active comments section. I said at the time that at some point I'd ask the same question for overrated episodes. Here goes, then:
Which episode of Friendship is Magic do you think is overrated?
As before, you have very nearly a free hand in deciding what's meant by "overrated" in this context. Just bear in mind that it's not the same as "worst". I'm going to keep nearly the same rules as before, but there is one addition:
* Try to pick only one episode. I know it's tough. That's part of the fun!
* I mean full-length show episodes, not films or shorts. "Best Gift Ever" counts.
* Double-length premieres/finales count as one, so they're eligible.
* "The Last Problem" is not eligible. It's simply too darn easy a choice. :P
You can interpret "overrated" however you want to. I very much don't want to give hard and fast rules here. You can pick an element that you think is overrated now, one that was overrated a lot in the past, whatever floats your boat. :)
Naturally it's only fair that I give my own reply too: "Magic Duel". I never much cared for Trixie, until she teamed up with Starlight several years down the road. I didn't find "Boast Busters" a classic either, but this was so uneven. Zecora's Jedi training was the highlight for me, that and a couple of one-liners (eg the "wheels" quote). Much of the rest... wasn't. I don't especially like the way M. A. Larson wrote Fluttershy, either. For me, it's a reasonable episode, but nothing like the classic some fans consider it.
So there's my answer. What's yours?
Kinda wish you'd saved this for later, when you'd gone back through more of the show, so I had a sense of what episodes people liked. :P
ReplyDeleteThat said, going with my gut and not thinking about it too much, I'll say Filli Vanilli. I know a lot of people -- yourself included! -- adore that episode, but I just cannot stand it. Plus, it introduced a whole extra facet to Rarity's life that it didn't seem she would actually have time for and never came up again. Plus, AKR not writing Pinkie well is a sin??
But yeah, I could of course go with "every episode I didn't like after about S5". :V Because most of those, everyone loved.
It'll be a week or two before I decide whether I still adore it! (Pinkie is the one thing in that episode I dislike. I just felt bad about being on the same side as the idiots who outright harassed AKR.)
DeleteAnd yes, there was a case for leaving this until after I'd watched everything. But there was a stronger case, at least in my mind, for not leaving it three more years. :P
You know, I thought this would be quite hard to choose. I'd actually started scanning through an episode list backwards (from the end, as in), but midway through Season 9, I realised what my choice would be. But not because I'd found the episode.
ReplyDeleteThe one I initially found was "Between Dark and Dawn" - a faintly awful episode, but one with enough disagreement against it, if one looks for it, that it's not as overrated as my gut often tells me. But it reminded me of another episode - one that is praised heavily by all but a few fans, a surefire technical candidate for Overrated if ever I saw one.
Yes - my pick for Most Overrated Episode is "A Royal Problem".
Now, before all your Celestia and Luna fans whip out the pitchforks, or banish me to the moon, let me explain. In the interest of time, I'll try to keep this brief (well, brief for me :P). No promises.
There's a LOT of easy complaints to make about this one. First, despite viewers clamouring for a Celestia episode for nearly 7 years, or even a Celestia and Luna episode, this has to share space with being a Starlight episode. Knowing now that the S6/7 staff were constantly pushing for a New Mane 6 with Starlight as the lead, but Hasbro would never quite allow it, it's hard to ignore the scars from their attempts to do so - that, and the Creator's Pet syndrome around Starlight, who gets the first non-Mane 6 Map mission AND the first solo Map mission. And while mild compared to other similar cases of the show not addressing her flaws and mental problems, and pretending they're okay, she uses magic on the Princesses without their consent and gets away with it.
Starlight is far less a focus in the second half, to be fair, though the ending has to reframe the episode around her anyway.
Then, there's the Continuity. Season 7 is terrible with throwing away previous continuity for in-the-moment things with no obvious gain (almost every flashback not in "The Perfect Pear", just for a start). Even if one doesn't care about the IDW comics, I think you'll agree it's cheap this episode rips ideas concepts from several of them AND renders them incompatible with this. The most obvious candidate is Luna's Micro-Series issue being about Luna taking on Celestia's royal duties for the day and learning how hard it is - something she does again temporarily in Reflections. The final Friends Forever would have been written after this episode despite coming out first, but it still portrays a far more sensible relationship in the conflict between the Royal Sisters (and also clarifies Celestia did Luna's dream-walking during her absence). Celestia even had dream battles in the Nightmare Moon FIENDship Nightmare Moon issue. This episode's concept relies on the sisters doing things for the first time that, according to the comics, they've done before.
[I also don't find myself impressed by Daybreak, it's far too easy and obvious a concept, even if I begrudgingly understand why it's easy to get hyped about it. Probably mostly because fans now have Canon justification for all their old "evil Celestia" head cannons, fan art and fics.]
Ultimately, the above problems are enough to take this episode down a fair few pegs, but if that were all, I could still understand, if not agree, why so many adore this episode. But where I run into a brick wall, and come across something I really can't justify as to why so many let slide, is the characterisation of the royal sisters themselves. It's frankly awful.
[continued below… yeah, I didn't do well at keeping this down, did I?]
[continued from above]
DeleteEven IF we discount all fanwork and head canon, AND the comics, and stick to the show - which has had precious few Celestia and Luna scenes - their relationship here feels so false. There's enough evidence in past episodes that both sisters deeply regret their falling out (moments like Celestia talking about past Summer Sun Celebrations in "Princess Twilight Sparkle - Part 1", and how they were sorrowful for her, while Luna raises the moon in the background), and truly treasure being close again. What do we get here? They fight over petty things, don't appreciate or talk to each other, ignore their problems, and in no way act like they dearly missed each other for 1000 years whatsoever. If they weren't sisters, you wouldn't think they were even friends from this episode!
And I haven't even mentioned the implication that history repeating itself, possibly Nightmare Moon again, is an inevitability.
If you can tell me, in little words so I understand, why this kind of backsliding and re-learning of a lesson for two characters that had to deal with the consequences and hurt for dozens of generations is okay, in a fandom that frequently gives ponies with normal lifespans abuse for re-learning something they already knew (which does happen with real people!), I'm all ears.
It's even worse for Luna, you'd think the Tantabus would have been a wake-up call. Yet this episode posits that right after she stopped torturing herself with a dream demon, she relapsed to resenting Celestia and bottling up her feelings. Celestia isn't much better, at this marks the 3rd serious occasion (after Nightmare Moon and the Tantabus) that she's so inattentive she doesn't even notice something's up. Excusable the first time, but not thereafter, when it ate away at her for a millennium. Watching this episode, one gets the impression Starlight - who barely knows them - cares about their relationship tenfold more than they do.
In many ways, the characterisation of the Royal sisters in the show's second half (Season 6-9) feels like it uses as its basis their argument about the wedding present in "Slice of Life", and nothing else. That scene worked for that fandom-skewing episode, and it's a perfectly understandable squabble to have with no real consequences. Not here since.
Before you start thinking that I detest this episode… I can't go quite that far. Some moments and scenes work, and the scenes not about the Royal Sisters are fine. And most of the above is the sort of stuff that's awful when you think about it, but not necessarily when watching the episode. As Royal Sisters episodes go, this one is still far better than "Between Dark and Dawn". But enough of a subset were dissatisfied with that. Yet almost everyone adored this, or at least really liked it. Perfect definition of overrated.
I don't want to think about the episode much more, as it gets worse the more I do (I'm somewhat sickened by that implication that most viewers are just taking this at surface-level, or blinded by the fact of getting a Celestia/Luna episode - I don't WANT to think that of most viewers in this fandom, but I'm let to little else). Just let me wrap up with this: if you want quality Royal Sisters Canon stories that are similar in plot to this, but aren't objectionable on every character and continuity level, just read Micro-Series #10 (Luna's one, rightfully regarded as a classic - Tibbles is even used in fics somewhat!) and Friends Forever #38 (a legitimate relationship dispute between the two that makes sense). No thanks necessary.
[It actually took me ages to realise this episode was so problematic. If my take seems familiar, yes, my eyes were somewhat opened by DannyJ's Season 7-9 blogs - my take is similar, but different. Regardless of what you think about those seasons, they are must-reads.]
100% agree with Mike! Back when I was blogging, I wrote a long diatribe about this episode, and why everything about it completely failed to work for me.
DeleteOther than that, I'll give a presumably idiosyncratic "shoutout" to Slice of Life, which is nowhere near the worst episode in the series, but which I've never forgiven for its sheer cynicism, in the sense of "embracing its own lack of substance." It was a pandering episode, in every sense of the word, and to me, that's "cheap" in a way that's the exact antithesis of what I enjoyed about the show. IMO, the worst episodes of FiM were those that recognized how little substance their genre/medium possesses; only marginally better were those that strove against that lack. The better episodes were those that refused the engage with the premise entirely, and went about their business--not accepting their status as mid-budget children's cartoons, not in spite of being mid-budget children's cartoons, but utterly unconcerned with the paradigm viewers might chose to place them in.
@Mike: 95% of that is a very interesting, thought-provoking reply, exactly the kind of thing that I was after. I know I don't often ask for negative opinions (which is deliberate, and will continue) but it seemed reasonable to balance out the "underrated" post a while ago with this one.
DeleteAs you doubtless know, I gave this episode five stars the first time round, albeit not without some uncertainty. Although I haven't watched it for a while now, I suspect it unlikely it will get the full rating once I reach it in the rewatch, and some of the things you brought up are likely to be reasons. Though I'd point out that I like Daybreaker while simultaneously not enjoying most "Tyrant Celestia" type headcanon, so, you know... :P
The fighting over petty things isn't necessarily a problem for me to an extent, as real-life siblings, even those who dearly love each other, do it all the time. But I agree that given the scale of what happened up until Luna's return, you'd expect their relationship to be coloured by it in a way that maybe it isn't here. I'm being vague because I haven't yet rewatched it. Finally, I should say that I'm in the camp that likes Good Starlight for the most part, even if she does annoy me to distraction sometimes.
(I'm somewhat sickened by that implication that most viewers are just taking this at surface-level, or blinded by the fact of getting a Celestia/Luna episode - I don't WANT to think that of most viewers in this fandom, but I'm let to little else).
And there's the remaining 5%. Too close to belittling people who don't agree with you, and that's not okay here. Thanks.
And there's the remaining 5%. Too close to belittling people who don't agree with you, and that's not okay here.
DeleteAh, shoot… It happened again.
I was composing a comment so massive that even split in two, it's too much for Blospot's current 3,800-ish comment limit per comment. But not enough actual content for more than that. So, I truncate it down to fit. In this case, that was mostly just needless words in sentences to speed the pace up, except where doing so actually harmed the sentence's effect.
I do a few passes - nope, still too long! Didn't want to change the midpoint, as it was too thematically perfect to break where I did either. I just wanted to get the comment posted by then, so I scan for actual sentences in the 2nd half to cut, rather than words. What do I land on?
The original version of the bracketed sentence you quote - it originally had a second part where I said: "Don't misunderstand me, for I do not begrudge anyone their enjoyment with this episode, and I remain happy that many people have gotten honest pleasure out of this - if I held firm to that for 'The Last Problem', one that personally annoys me the way this one does so largely theoretically, iI absolutely do so here too. I simply remain baffled that almost everyone adores it, given how clear the flaws are to me, and where virtually every other episode I have severe gripes with has enough dissenters, if one looks for them."
I figured that relatively-standard "continue to enjoy it if you want to!" sentence could go, that people know that sort of thing by default anyway (akin to one not needing to state "this is just my opinion" every time). And especially here, where most people know me and my writing style at least somewhat. So, out it went.
However, I was in such a hurry to post, I neglected to rework the sentence's first half, which without the following part to balance it out… yeah, I can totally see how it could come across as borderline-belittling. Obviously had I noticed that, it would have been phrased in a way that left no room for inferring any belittling.
So, now you know. Sorry for anyone who took offence. I deliberately posted this full explanation here as an apology for my oversight - happens to the best of us!
In response to one other thing: I'm not automatically opposed to Good Starlight. Setting aside the abysmal "The Cutie Re-Mark", I can, after a fashion, enjoy a Season 6-onwards Starlight episode, or at least not automatically mark it down (it still needs to stand on its own merits!), IF it doesn't draw attention to her character/the plot of that two-parter. Basically I have to mentally separate her from that two-parter and treat her as a different character - not too hard, given the slight voice change and different manestyle. To give an obvious example, "The Parent Map" is easily one of Season 8's best episodes.
Anyway, the thing with Starlight here comes from her taking space and focus away from what the viewers, and what the episode itself, wants, and it a very Creator's Pet kind of way. But as stated, more minor then the Royal Sisters' characterisation.
And I understand not wanting to do Negative-type posts like this - like you, I don't often enjoy them, though I don't automatically stay away from them. But they are needed on rare occasion. Can't completely ignore that type of thing!
As I said elsewhere, apology accepted and no grudges will be borne. We've all been there. :)
DeleteBy the way, I also liked "The Cutie Re-Mark" last time around (four stars), so the S5 rewatch posts could end on an interesting note! :D
Here's a controversial pick. I would say that The Perfect Pear is the most overrated episode. Don't get me wrong this is a great episode but I don't think it's best episode of the entire series that most people say it is and in my opinion there at least five episodes I would rate over this one.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to repeat the answer I gave to Loganberry at the meet, "Gauntlet of Fire". I thought it was a bit of a "meh" episode to be honest, but was (pleasantly) surprised that so much of the fandom seemed to have loved it.
ReplyDelete"Naturally it's only fair that I give my own reply too: 'Magic Duel'."
ReplyDeleteYou're darn tootin'! Although for me, the Trixie in the Equestria Girls spin-off (and especially in "Forgotten Friendship") is where she's at her best.
I'm going to deliberately make this hard for myself and confine my answer to the first half of the show. Otherwise, I'd give sweeping blanket-answers, and all it'd prove is that I don't like the second half, which isn't in the spirit of the OP.
So while there are still plenty of eps in that range I dislike, for overrated I'd nominate "Crusaders of the Lost Mark".
I don't think I've ever seen anyone dislike this ep, and definitely not as much as I do, which is one reason why I'm invoking the "overrated" label. The CMC's cutie-mark chasing had been growing stale for a while anyway, and I was clamouring for some resolution beforehand. So what is this ep's long-awaited answer to a question that dates back to one of the best and most surprisingly intelligent episodes of Season One? Just have them chase cutie marks again! Only under a different banner!
I think the phrase "for Pete's sake!" is apposite here.
For one thing, this episode resorts to a trope the show has hardly ever done well: goddamn quick and easy redemption. It seriously mishandles Diamond Tiara. I wanted to see some depth from her ever since Season Two started using her in unorthodox ways, but this isn't depth. We're not seeing a new side to DT: we're seeing the only prominent side of her get negated for a one-off bit of cheap drama. Her mother amounts to a last-minute scapegoat.
DT never needed to turn into a 100% good pony in the first place - look at her business affiliations in "Family Appreciation Day" and "Ponyville Confidential", look at her celebrity-chasing in "Twilight Time". Heck, just compare and contrast her with Silver Spoon for a day. Do something interesting with her! Instead, the show resorts to a lazy feel-good answer: she comes as the last of the Season One antagonists/villains to be redeemed, at a point where way too many redemptions have been handed out already, and it amounts to nought in any case as she effectively vanishes from existence after this, with nothing to even capitalize on the game-changer. It seems the only reason she served as a catalyst for the CMC's cutie marks was for the weak irony of being their bully, and the only reason that stands out is because the show itself has apparently been allergic towards using her any other way.
Lastly and worstly, it trips up the CMC's entire arc in a way that's tedious and reductionistic, basically marking the point where the writers have to admit they structurally or imaginatively can't do any interesting long-term arcs at all. This ep ignores the far more insightful and promising angles of prior CMC eps: "Bloom and Gloom" already proposed examples of some really juicy drama, and we've had glimpses of potential already in "The Show Stoppers" and "Twilight Time", to say nothing of their attitudes towards their sisters. These are complex, growing characters, and shutting them in the cutie mark box when they should be growing past that is a complete disservice to them.
DeleteMoreover, it basically plops them in exactly the same place, turning a life-cycle-oriented stage of their growth into a total gimmick. The sheer aimlessness of the CMC's cutie mark focus was already evident in the last couple of seasons, but it dries out entirely thereafter, and this episode can be squarely blamed for that. Worse, it does it in the most back-handed way possible: they get what they want when they openly declare they'll stop looking for it! Even though we'll make a big song and dance about it when we get it right there and then! Yeah, that self-contradicting old hack-trope of a cliche, the one "Call of the Cutie" neatly stepped over by celebrating discovery and exploration without going all sour-grapes over it. "The Cutie Mark Chronicles" managed six classic little stories just by showing the Main Six being the Main Six. All this episode proves is that it only knows one thing about the CMC, and thanks to a one-note repetition it's already arguably the least interesting thing about them by this point.
The fact that their cutie marks are frankly overdesigned, garish, and completely out of synch with normal ponies' I consider the final clinching proof of how badly off this episode is.
And that's not even getting into the stylistic annoyances, like the fact that this is a sudden musical episode with a voting subplot that has nothing to do with anything and is gone as abruptly as it arrives.
The fact that this doesn't seem to draw any complaints despite its relevance to one of the show's few ongoing arcs is - I consider - grounds enough to call it overrated.
It's been a while since I posted on this blog...!
DeleteAnyway, I agree 100% about Crusader of the Lost Mark being overrated. I don't have much to say that you haven't already, IN. What I can add, however, is that the episode is, in a nutshell, spectacle over substance. I'm one of those people who puts the story first when discussing anything, and the story for this episode is terrible. Bland visuals can be salvaged by a great story, but amazing visuals cannot save an atrocious story.
@Impossible Numbers: I do vaguely recall that Fimfiction was one place where it wasn't unheard of for people to criticise "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" even at the time. I'm never going to be able to see that episode entirely objectively because of when it went out (during a convention I was at) but I'm boring and in the "love it" camp. Though it doesn't remotely approach "Amending Fences" in terms of actual writing quality, I think.
Delete@Zack Wanzer: Hello! It has indeed been a while, but it's nice to see you in this neck of the woods again. I can't remember how you rated "Amending Fences" now, but I'd be willing to bet it was higher than you rated "CotLM" and by quite some distance.
(Something I always enjoyed about your reviews, even when I took an entirely different view myself, was that you were willing to use the whole range of ratings. I sometimes feel I didn't do that enough.)
Speaking of my blogging days, this thread made me go back and verify that yes, I am also on the record as being unimpressed with Crusaders of the Lost Mark :)
DeleteLooking back through my old reviews, I note that I gave all of "Slice of Life", "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" and "A Royal Problem" five stars. Mind you, I always knew there was no hope for me! :D
Delete(I suspect that five-star sweep will be gone after I've rewatched them all, admittedly.)