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| "When I said I wanted a scone, I meant right now!" |
S5E08: "The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone"
My original rating: ★★★
IMDb score: 8.3
Thoughts: Gilda's redemption episode isn't AKR's greatest, but it's certainly serviceable. I enjoyed the world-building in this, as well as the nicely drawn storybook art showing the history of Griffonstone. Maybe Arimaspi (who tangled with griffons in real-world mythology!) was a little bit of a waste, in that we never saw him again, but he at least helped to set things up. A lot of the things I liked here were the smaller details, such as Pinkie's bizarre infatuation with King Grover's statue, Rainbow Dash's Twilight impression (shades of "Newbie Dash" next season) or indeed Pinkie's (again) comments on hugs. The team-up of the two worked quite well. The griffon abandoning Rainbow, quite possibly to die, due to lack of bits was very dark indeed for this show when you think about it. Back in 2015 I speculated that maybe the Abysmal Abyss had a future significance (no) or that the Cutie Map being able to summon only certain ponies was directly related to Starlight's dastardly deeds (also no). Twilight's little cameo at the start was nice, though I did feel for her not being able to accompany Dash and Pinkie! Grandpa Gruff was irritating, and at the time I had no inkling he'd return to the show much later with a completely different griffon. Oh, and William Anderson gave us some fine background music. All in all, a relatively standard but solidly made adventure story. Three stars last time, three stars this time – albeit a high one. Not much more to say about it.
Choice quote: Gilda: "Here we go. Typical pony hero complex."
New rating: ★★★
Next up is "Slice of Life". Enough said!
I'm still of the mind that this is a very average episode. Intense world-building, really great stuff, but the actual story is eh. Probably because I never cared about Gilda.
ReplyDeleteThough at the time I remember the world-building sparking all kinds of fandom speculation. It never really came to much in fanfic etc, I guess because "Slice of Life" happened -- though there was a three-week mini-hiatus before it aired.
DeleteBy this time, I had given up on them ever using Gilda again, so it was a surprise to see her, but yeah, this was a very average show. Plus it rendered my speculation of a Dash/Gilda reunion as AU. >:V
ReplyDeleteI thought we'd seen the last of her too. I remember it was a little bit divisive to bring her back, in that some fans felt it was a better moral to stick with "Sometimes there's a point where you really do have to cut off toxic friends" and some felt the redemption was more in keeping with FiM philosophy.
Delete(Would have been a better moral, I mean.)
DeleteI never really thought about how the 4.5-year gap between Gilda's two appearances would have seemed like eternity, to the point that most viewers would have long since given up hope she'd return. Benefit of only a month between the two for me in my initial binge of the show! And Pascoite makes total sense, I'm sure most viewers had long since written off Gilda ever returning, and thus got surprised when the episode title was announced, and more so with the blurb.
ReplyDeleteAnyway… I think I fall on the side of this episode's existence somewhat cheapening the moral of "Griffon the Brush Off". Not that that's an exemplary episode, by any stretch, but that is undeniably one of its best parts, from the era where unusual and unexpected lessons were worth savouring. Another strike against it, from the future this time, is that the future promises it teases – Griffonstone and griffons becoming better, Gilda returning again – never came to pass. Which would have stung less if they'd been kept offscreen (hey another benefit to cutting off at Season 5 or 7!), rather than seeing Griffonstone and griffons still suck, as we did. Gabby was pretty neat, though.
What of the actual episode? Not gonna disagree with the rest of you, it's a perfectly fine, enjoyable episode. Solid gags (the one part that actually feels like Amy Keating Rogers wrote this, as will happen given she and Larson swapped episodes late enough), intriguing lore and world-building, but the story is just there. Nothing wrong with it, it just kind of… proceeds on autopilot. Kind of setting a trend for most Map episodes there! That this is better than the utterly forgettable "Made in Manehattan" and underwhelming "The Hooffields and McColts" isn't saying much.
It's clear Gilda was a character built around her plot role in her debut episode, with minimal personality that didn't feed into "bully" (whereas Trixie, even if I don't care for her much, I totally understand why she struck a chord). In this episode, that's even more apparent, with her softened considerably to fit the plot that will have her reform, with occasional moments of spice again.
Still, the main meat of this one may be merely fine, but there's enough neat stuff at the margins that I am positively disposed towards it. If unenthusiastically so. For all that Season 5 was really teased as being a "adventuring outside Equestria" season at the time, that petered out quick, didn't it? So much stuff got changed and scaled back as this season progressed (Twilight actually had guards?!? Not to mention the 3 or 4 wildly different versions of the season finale). Hard not to wonder…
A few other thoughts. It was kind of underwhelming how Griffonstone started the whole "foreign kingdom of another species is just one small underwhelming village down in the dumps" trend, both here and for future episodes. I do kind of wish we'd had a version where it wasn't such a dump, though the Premise, which was that, was very lacking in content, so I do kind of understand why the change was made. Again, it would sting it it had gotten better or it had been kept offscreen after this.
Lastly, I didn't mind Grampa Gruff (though I am the kind of person who finds Garble is used fine in his initial role – I don't need all characters to be likeable, if they're quirky and offbeat), though I do find myself wondering if, given his hat, he's meant to be a Jewish analogue. My knowledge is limited enough there that I actually had to be told be others, way back, that Watto in the Star Wars prequels is apparently a Jewish stereotype too. So, you know. In any case, it was a big mistake for the Season 8 crew to plug him into the "Griffonstone leader" role, and that's a MINOR example of their lazy usage of older characters/things for a new purpose.
Probably forgetting something else I want to say here. Isn't that always the way, though?
Interesting you bring up the Jewish stereotype angle. I was interested to see whether this was mentioned during development, as it always felt like a bunch of story elements - the griffons' isolation and mythological nature tied to Gilda as an established jerk leading to the whole group being naturally, comically greedy, and with overwheening insularity - were grouped together both for their natural synergy and for Rule of Funny purposes, and then only at a late stage did someone pipe up and note that there's a lot of crossover between that portrayal and historical antisemitic tropes.
Delete(My father in law used to tell me about people dropping coins in the street to see if he'd stop and pick them up, Jews being physically unable to resist money.)
With that in mind, it actually felt to me like the artists had actually taken steps to minimise that aspect, rather than emphasise it. I wonder if turning Griffonstone into a miserable dump was part of that? Happily if so, because it not only lends itself to a better story in a better setting. Less problematic, too, in that the village elder isn't a rich moneylender type, he's clearly as poor as everygriff else - and that in turn might explain making him the de facto leader in season 8.
(For the record, I found Watto particularly offensive, whereas this is just... A bit clumsy and faintly uncomfortable. But it always felt like at least someone at some point noticed the implications and tried to do something about it.)
I was interested to see whether this was mentioned during development
DeleteWell, don't forget, this is largely just scripts and outlines. Only in the animatic feedback emails (which are in .doc format), do we get direct comments from the people involved (occasionally there are saved emails about solving other particular issues – in "Maud Pie", the Hub felt the titular character simply did not work, especially for the targeted audience, and came across as braindead). And by that point, the script had long since been settled, as had Gruff's design. As you see below, Griffonstone wasn't a dump in the first draft, and the plot feels too vague at that point to pick out any Jewish vibes to it (it's described as the West LA of Equestria, with its appearance been a cross between a large eagle's nest and Pride Rock – this physical description balancing eagles and lions carries through the scripts). And there is also Gruff being a female in the earlier drafts too.
Is the media trope of someone checking a coin's authenticity by biting down on it specifically a Jewish thing? I always thought that was just, you know, people being greedy.
And, well, I suppose the staff and Hasbro were still smarting from criticism against the zebra and buffalo episodes in Season 1, which might explain downplaying those elements.
and that in turn might explain making him the de facto leader in season 8.
Afraid not, the implications of the staff just picking him because there were no other characters available and they were too lazy to find a workaround for their School of Friendship plot setup that required their new characters be brought over by their country's leaders – those implications are far too subtle to ignore. Notwithstanding that had to invent the character of General Seaspray instead of using Queen Novo due to not wanting to use the movie's characters, or being unable to. But that's enough energy spent on that space!
ReplyDeletePREMISE
Griffonstone isn’t a dump here, and is quite prosperous, even if the griffons are jerks (it’s the West LA of Equestria). Once Gilda shows up, it gets much different, with the episode having Dash & Pinkie trailing her to observe how miserable she is of no one caring even when she does something great. It is revealed that Gilda took Dash’s awesomeness to heart back at Flight Camp, and was so rude back in Season 1 because she was afraid of losing her only friend. Though the ponies’ encouragement to try honestly approaching others griffons doesn’t work for Gilda, she and the ponies have enough fun that the map mission is complete, and the two leave much as in the final episode, with Gilda having the confidence to be herself and trust that friendships will follow.
With Griffonstone not a dump, the episode feels awfully bare in the middle. So it is understandable why more content was added. Even if starting the trend of everywhere outside of Equestria being a ruin wasn’t a good one to start.
OUTLINE
The bakery opening was originally Dash posing like a Greek statue for Pinkie to sculpt a replica cake for Scootaloo’s birthday cake. Next, the map sequence has Dash narrating the Griffonstone flashback (which includes the later Arimaspi flashback), something she picked up from an A.K. Yearling interview that formed the basis for one Daring Do book (maybe Larson hasn’t realised Daring Do was real yet?). Twilight is skeptical as that doesn’t sound like a friendship mission, but Dash remains adamant, and sidesteps Pinkie bringing up Gilda on the trip.
As we already got all the necessary exposition (no need for Grampa Gruff), Dash and Pinkie split quicker. And honestly, the outline is basically the final episode thereafter, only tiny differences in detail. Just that Rainbow Dash and Pinkie notice the Tree of Harmony sapling sprouting up (more on that later), as Gilda and Greta talk about it. The first green shoots of friendship.
Take out Dash instead of Gummy in the opening, and Dash providing all the exposition, and this is the final episode already. Remarkably little invention on Amy Keating Rogers’ part from M.A. Larson’s treatment here!
SCRIPT
This is one of those scripts where the first draft (credited to Rogers and Larson, who conceived the episode and wrote the Premise and Outline) is basically the same, but it shares very little specific dialogue/incident. Notable differences include Gilda selling her feathers as quills instead of scones (Rogers had already disclosed this on Twitter), Twilight thinking she’d been called too until Spike pointed out otherwise (this survived a few drafts), Dash reading Twilight’s notes as they scaled the mountain, Grampa Gruff being Granny Griffon (this lasted one more draft), and a detail that most griffons abandoned Griffonstone ages ago, implying many live more prosperously elsewhere.
The remaining scripts are just correcting dialogue tweaks and more small incidental differences. The biggest standout is that the pre-title opening changed vastly in the first three scripts before settling on the Sugarcube Corner scene. First it was Pinkie trying and failing to find Dash in the Castle of the Two Sisters (elaborate Hide and Seek, basically). Then it was Pinkie’s mark glowing and her checking the rest of the Mane 5. Then it was Pinkie helping Applejack, Rarity and Fluttershy with a bee hive issue until her mark starts glowing, at which point she runs off to Dash sleeping on a cloud. Kind of like “The Cutie Map”, which kept shifting its opening around for a few drafts. Fits to be changed, it’s structurally odd to bring in the rest of the Mane 5 for this (especially Rarity, costing extra VA money), and they were over-laboured compared to the simple Gummy hijinks we got.
[animatic changes & final thoughts below]
"The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone" – Production Changes
Delete[continued from above]
ANIMATIC & OTHER CHANGES
Animatic cuts are light enough with this one, with only three dialogue cuts in the first act.
* The script says Spike is in the map room scene (a leftover from when he brought Twilight back to earth), but he doesn’t say or do anything. Poor guy gets no respect. Better cut then ignored.
* Twilight’s narration ended with extra lines encouraging Dash & Pinkie to absorb everything and report it back in specific detail.
* The flashback had Guto and Aramaspi grappling by the pit edge, rather than cutting from a lightning strike to him falling in.
* When Dash bursts into the supply shop, the doors fell off their hinges.
* Gilda originally responded “we don’t have x” to Pinkie’s questions instead of just staring blankly for effect. Funnier to use no response, I say.
* The guide originally descended with Dash, but climbed back up once Dash got stuck, saying there weren’t enough bits in Equestria for this. A rare case of line changes in the booth, to make the guide quit because Dash was out of bits.
* In the script, Dash and Pinkie pushed the King Grover statue upright before leaving.
* Pinkie’s ending dialogue originally accompanied a hidden reveal of a sapling with the Tree of Harmony’s colours breaking through the earth. The replacement cutaway to Gummy in Sugarcube Corner was added to keep to pacing and momentum.
Notable board additions/changes include:
* The close-up on Pinkie whispering “The map!” to Gummy. In the script, she just said it as part of her previous line. Concurrently, the script had Pinkie leaving for the castle but returning for every bit of work she did for Gummy, a detail not carried over.
* Twilight deactivating the map with her magic. Don’t think we ever saw that one again…
* The gag of Pinkie spending all her bits on snacks wasn’t communicated well in the script, just her returning with the snacks at the scene’s start. Animatic feedback led to it being revised for a snappier visual punchline.
* Gilda and Dash saying each other’s name was likened to Seinfeld’s “Newman…” even in the script.
Gilda miming Grampa Gruff’s words was in the script, but earlier. It was moved to break up the pre-flashback narration.
* Gruff’s falsely sweet “Oh, well…” before he yells at Pinkie wasn’t in the script. Great booth improv, makes it funnier than the numerous other cases of characters just saying “No refunds” straight.
* The guide was a male in the script. Usually gender changes are to make do with available voice actors, so not sure why this one was changed.
* Pinkie did hook the first rope she threw around a rock, it was just too short. Her throwing it all down was a board gag.
* Some of Gilda and Dash’s lines in the flight camp flashback were shifted around in order.
* The action specifics of Gilda saying Dash and Pinkie were slightly different in the script. And the skull of Arimsapi was a board addition too.
* The commercial-style flashback to Pinkie’s baking bit was, of course, added in boards.
Animatic feedback had more visual violence checks then usual (mostly the Arimaspi flashback, which they got away with due to being still illustrations/limited animation). Also adding more background griffons, and confirming the sapling bit would be cut now the season finale script was far enough along to be sure that Checkov’s Gun wouldn’t be used.
OVERALL THOUGHTS
Not much to this one. It is illuminating to see a draft where Griffonstone wasn’t a dump, even if it was kind of plotless. Doesn’t mean another direction couldn’t have been taken. Every other change makes sense (all those different openings!), or is neutral (two gender swaps, hm). Nice array of storyboard and animatic improvements too. It’s hard to look back on this episode, knowing Griffonstone and the griffons never improved, and Gilda never returned, but in isolation, it did a good production improvement job.
Huh... this might be the first time everyone commenting agrees with the rating. Solid three stars from me, too.
ReplyDeleteIt always mildly annoyed me that someone clearly found the name "Guto" when searching for real world first names beginning with G - it's a fairly common Welsh forename, I know two different Gutos IRL! - but didn't realise it's not actually pronounced like it looks (it's something more like 'Gittuh').
ReplyDeleteAnyway three is probably fair, though I might just nudge it into the borderline fours. All of the criticism here is valid, but even so... I like Gilda and Dash reconnecting after five real-life years, I find it a nice addendum to the S1 moral rather than invalidating it (it's still okay to cut toxic friends out of your life, but that doesn't mean that that friendship is now both meaningless and permanently dead, you can't ever reconnect in the future if they stop being such an arse). The various random gags are great (the baking powder commercial makes me laugh to this day), I really like that Gilda's first attempt to spread friendship is realistically handled with the other griffon being initially weirded out until offered free food, and the art shift for the legend parts is still striking. So I think I like this one better than most readers, even if I wouldn't necessarily call it a favourite or anything.